The "Official" Annual Discussion On The Fate Of HHN

[N i c k]

I think TWD being a cause of some of this is an accurate reason. I agree that it is a great business decision to include it. People love that show. I personally don't care for it, but it brings people out. I wonder if there is a possibility that whenever TWD's popularity diminishes, will Universal again have to put more effort toward marketing the event or will there be another IP to take the place of the TWD? Conventional wisdom says there will be another TWD, but what other horror-ish entities are there out there to draw numbers like TWD has?

[Cooger and Dark]

I think TWD being a cause of some of this is an accurate reason. I agree that it is a great business decision to include it. People love that show. I personally don't care for it, but it brings people out. I wonder if there is a possibility that whenever TWD's popularity diminishes, will Universal again have to put more effort toward marketing the event or will there be another IP to take the place of the TWD? Conventional wisdom says there will be another TWD, but what other horror-ish entities are there out there to draw numbers like TWD has?

Well American Horror Story seems to be the most talked about but if you look at the numbers, it received less than 5mil on its season 3 finale. What it lacks in numbers it does make up for in word of mouth and awards (although I think everyone knows this house has little likelihood of happening).

Sleepy Hollow seems to be the closest contender numbers wise but the season finale numbers were less than half that of TWD (6.9mil to 15.7mil). That being said, Sleepy Hollow is only one season old and TWD had about 6mil at its season one finale. I am not sure how good the word of mouth has been on this show, but it does seem a show worth considering. At the very least, pulling some ideas from the show for an original house would be pretty amazing (Mr. Sandman, please!).

[Guest kiwisoup]

I think another thing to account for is that Universal is really speeding forward with expansion and new attractions, especially with their promise to have new attractions every year...We know that Diagon Alley opening a few months ago is a big reason that this year hasn't had a lot of build up and Mike Aiello was in charge of the entertainment for it and didn't he have a kid this year too? I don't think on the business side that they wanted to take any of the spotlight off of Diagon Alley or the opening of the Cabana Beach Resort that they were also heavily promoting. In past years, new attractions to have have as a headliner of sorts were fewer and far between.

[hunnylvr]

I was thinking of LT and the big presentation they made at Halloween Extreme last year talking about their ideas to keep awareness of HHN all year long by using LT. I can't help but wonder why they'd go through all that, and also create a website that has multiple levels to reveal, create merchandise for LT, and hype all this stuff only to shit can it now. It doesn't make sense. I understand budgets and cuts and all that crap - hell, my JOB is finance for our company. So, I get it. But I also understand that putting some effort, time and money into something and seeing results shouldn't be ignored just because it might be a smaller part of the pie than something else. I don't think it's true that the games didn't bring in more dollars. I firmly believe that many people attended more nights than they normally would have BECAUSE of the games. I know we did. While it's all great and sweet to have new customers show up to the event so they can flock the stupid Walking Dead, it's also beneficial to have repeat business at an event that runs for six weeks. There is no haunt here in Chicago that I would even consider going to for almost 10 nights in one season like we did at last year's HHN. That says something - especially because I can't just get in my car and drive there.

I realize the general public can be rather ignorant when it comes to the interactive parts of the website they've had in the past, but I don't think that necessarily means they'd be uninterested. Maybe some little plug on these posters or the big cardboard deals they set up in grocery stores... give the website and some tag that says something like "come be part of the story" or whatever. It's not that hard. People live on the friggin internet anyway.

If they don't have LT this year, I'll be kind of bummed. I'll miss it and miss what it brought to us in the way of getting to know more of you. I still think the event will be awesome, but, yes, I guess I'm taking it personally now , too. Oh well.. so it's personal.

[HomemadeHaunt]

As JDW said, it would be easy to keep us occupied and happy with only a little work. Someone in A&D would be happy to take up an alias on a social media account and gives us clues, puzzles, etc. And they best part is, they wouldn't have to pay a single penny to do this. Unfortunately, in the eyes of the company, the event is doing just fine so why even bother with it?

[HomemadeHaunt]

I completely agree with you hunnylvr. I went 8-10 nights last year and part of it was because of LT. I really enjoyed racking up points and badges and I picked up a lot of LT merch as well. Not to mention, the last night of the event was totally awesome with the final LT task and closing remarks from T.J and Thornecastle. There were hundreds of people participating that night and it really made it seem more like a community. Personally, I think that LT increased profits last year for sure. Not an enormous amount, but think of all the frequent fear passes, merchandise, and concessions were sold during the course of the event. With some changes, LT could be marketed so that more people are aware of it and interested in checking it out. Nowhere did I see LT advertised on billboards or any other signage last year. What if it was advertised more? I think a lot more people would be interested and therefore, the business aspect of the event would see even more profits. Just my thoughts.

[Legacy]

Here's my thoughts on LT last year. And I'll admit that this is not based on numbers by observational estimates based on threads here and on the Horror Unearthed Facebook page.

I have not noticed a huge influx of people becoming involved in the community between 2011 and 2012. Most of the people I see on here I've seen since I became active in the community (2010). Most of the people on Horror Unearthed talk about attending years prior to 2011. A lot of those people even had gotten the RoF or FF passes in 2010 and 2011. Even those of you here who went multiple nights, how many nights were you planning on attending anyway? Was it two or three or five? How many people who only planned on attending one night changed their minds and went ten instead?

See, that was the target market. The "year-round" LT, from a business perspective, was designed to engage the one night a year people and make them want to spend more money. The story of LT, the idea of LT, came from the artists wanting to do something fun and unique to reward passion. But that wasn't why it was approved.

So, a business decision was made that utilized the two duel-edge sword of increased profitability and fan-community placation. A fairly large website was developed (likely costing upwards of $10,000), a wireless scanner system was built (low-end estimate would say it cost $50,000 to develop and install), plus man-power in operating and maintaining all of it likely puts Universal's investment in last year's LT experiment at around $100,000 (and that's likely a very low estimate, but let's run with it). But was it worth it?

Here's the thing with any form of "annual pass" that grants unfettered access... they're actually profit-loss items. The idea behind them is that, if you get in for "free," it incitives you to spend more on high-profit items (specifically, food, drinks and souvenirs). And I think this is where LT went off the rails on the business-side. If the "players" who purchased the FF or RoF passes were too focused running around the park to score points and play the game, then they're not actually spending money. Suddenly, that $100,000 investment starts getting a minimal return. If the number of FF or RoF passes sold only increased five percent because of the game, but the game itself pulled 30% of the purchasers away from spending extra money then Universal actually LOST money on LT.

It was kind of an inevitability though. HHN already caters to a niche market. LT caters to a niche of a niche market. Because of the incredibly small percentage of people who actually care enough about HHN enough to care about the story of LT, trying to profit off of it is going to eventually going to hit the point of diminishing returns. LT, financially speaking, is a zero-sum game that a business on a massive up-swing has zero part in playing.

And in my opinion, advertising LT more still wouldn't make a difference. A vast majority of people go to HHN once (maybe twice) a year to say they went, maybe get scared, and have some drinks with their friends. A lot of them won't even go through all eight houses. Many will only go through two or three. The event itself isn't why they are there, it's the people they're with. An LT story could be written by Tolkien, directed by JJ Abrams, and star Benedict Cumberbatch and most HHN attendees' interest will not extend past the time it takes to say, "Is that Sherlock?"

I know I'm cynical about the event, but know that it comes from a good place. I want to see Universal succeed. But sometimes, success comes at the expense of nostaligia.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Legacy

[homelessjogger]

As JDW said, it would be easy to keep us occupied and happy with only a little work. Someone in A&D would be happy to take up an alias on a social media account and gives us clues, puzzles, etc. And they best part is, they wouldn't have to pay a single penny to do this. Unfortunately, in the eyes of the company, the event is doing just fine so why even bother with it?

Even though "it's that easy" it's really not. Even then things that get published need to get reviewed, approved, and go through legal before making its way to us in any form. So unless they sign off on not having to go through typical procedure on these things, the cost is too high to justify it. Just an hour long meeting with specific action items afterward can end up costing the company thousands, or even tens of thousands of dollars to get it to us.

Corporations are bloated when it comes to making decisions and being cost-effective. Which is why it's hard to see any change being made. Even if you have a department that is incredibly passionate, wiling, and presenting brilliant ideas day after day, year after year, being part of such a huge company impedes that from seeing the light of day. Which is why so many people end up leaving to start their own independent companies, go to other places that promise to give them more control, etc.

Also, Legacy, everything about the business side of things you said in your last post is spot on. Getting people in the park is key. Like a movie theatre the ticket prices aren't the big ticket item to drive revenue. It's the food, the merchandise, etc. Which is why they had LT merchandise could buy with your symbol on it, etc. It's really smart but they just lack the time, upper-management buy-in, or budget (or all three).

[JDW]

All that is true. I see Disney's MK game and even smaller Pirate game in a similar vein. But, they must have enough people who go there and play as they have that stuff all over the park (and all over Adventure Land for the Pirate game).

[ghostdude]

As JDW said, it would be easy to keep us occupied and happy with only a little work. Someone in A&D would be happy to take up an alias on a social media account and gives us clues, puzzles, etc. And they best part is, they wouldn't have to pay a single penny to do this. Unfortunately, in the eyes of the company, the event is doing just fine so why even bother with it?

You make it sound so easy and peachy, this would never fly in the real world. HHN belong to universal, not a bunch of frat buddies drinkinking in their man cave. BTW, HHN's doing fine, in fact they're doing way better then fine, just because you might not be pleased with what they're doing now does not say otherwise.

[TNN]

Get back on your soapbox... You're not finished.

People who know me, and more importantly know my history with HHN, know that the event use to be a very very personal thing. It was where I met my wife. It was my first real job before joining the Army. It was, and continues to be, a personal pipedream. The only reason I still somewhat care about the event is because of nostalgia (and the firm belief that I could run the damn thing so much better than anyone).

That said, I came to realize in 2011 that the event really isn't conducive to actually being personal. Yes, that revelation stemmed from what I viewed as a managerial middle-finger, but it wasn't a one time issue. It was a long-active policy that put the bottom-line over the people that were most passionate about the event. The only thing that changed is that, for once, my passion couldn't hide what was there all along.

The people may care, but the business doesn't.

Maybe I should get that tattooed across my chest. Universal doesn't, and hasn't cared about us. The thing is is that, during the aughts, we (the fans) got this misguided mindset that we mattered to the business. The Terra Queen sacrifice and Legendary Truth especially are highlighted as pinnacles of "doing something for the fans." But that completely ignores that fact that it was the people in A&D doing something special. The business didn't care because there was no real liability with it.

The personal relationship the hardcore fans share with the event is, and always has been, a one-way street. The major difference now is that, because of HHN's success with the people who don't have a personal investment with a theme park event, the bloom is coming off the rose. Nothing has really changed. We just see it now.

I know people who still take a personal slight to the closure of Jaws. But from an objective stance, it was a brilliant decision to remove it for Diagon Alley. A person who is offended when a business makes a business decision is choosing to take it personnal. And that's entirely on them. You can't blame the business, because the business NEVER cared.

Hello

Long time lurker. Even longer time horror fan and Horror Nights attendee.

Thank you to Legacy and JDW. Excellent comments. Logical, intelligent, and true (in my opinion).

Agreeing with everything said by both of you. I have seen what you speak of, having attended for many years.

The event is wonderful and difficult not to enjoy. It is also difficult not to agree with others that the current website, reveals, and marketing have not given us that horror feeling from days of yore.

This is where I get my fix for all things horror. All the interactions, speculation, polls, and horror community.

I continue to attend Horror Nights for the horror and fun and will come here to enjoy the nightmares with all of you.