The "Official" Annual Discussion On The Fate Of HHN

[JDW]

Man I tell ya, that is just such an amazing and unique HHN logo and offical art piece. /sarcasm

[Legacy]

Man I tell ya, that is just such an amazing and unique HHN logo and offical art piece. /sarcasm

You say that like you're surprised.

[JDW]

No just... let down a little.

I mean if you have to use zombies again why not use the gas mask zombie up close and in your face or the poice riot zombie... something interesting. That art is very much the opposite of menacing. It's background noise.

And is this how the logos will be from now on? Just the standard font with a bloody nimber?

Where is the tag line? where is anything memorable about it?

[Legacy]

No just... let down a little.

I mean if you have to use zombies again why not use the gas mask zombie up close and in your face or the poice riot zombie... something interesting. That art is very much the opposite of menacing. It's background noise.

And is this how the logos will be from now on? Just the standard font with a bloody nimber?

Where is the tag line? where is anything memorable about it?

Maybe... Just maybe... We'll get something special as a tagline for next year. Granted, we can hope that for every "anniversary" year.

I'm just still kinda annoyed that it seems they'll never do a "Grip of Fear" tag line with a bloody handprint. I mean that pretty much markets itself.

[The_Bled]

Personally, if the event is great the website is 110% irrelevant.

[ghostdude]

Ohhh the humanityyyyy!!! Same print, no tagline, no this, the same that, ohhh the world's coming to a horrible end!!! once inside the park, no one will care about the print they used for the number 23, or none of that other stuff.

[JDW]

By that rationale this:



should appeal to kids as much as this:




Right? I mean after all it's the same crap on the inside.

Hell, with that rationale why do we even need marketing? They should just forget about any pre-event teasing, commercials, billboards, ads, or signage and just slap up this right before the event starts.



I mean think of all the money they would save!

Marketing is too important to be left to the marketing department - David Packard

[The_Bled]

Whatever point you're trying to sell is not working. People are going to go to the event regardless of what the logo looks like, and they'll more than likely enjoy it. What the website looks like and what the standee or logo looks like is so irrelevant.

[N i c k]

I get what the point is and I agree with you. That being said, there are plenty of people that would still attend the event if there were no marketing at all.

[JDW]

And that is why they will not change it. Why bother making interactive sites, backstories, Icons, interesting marketing if they feel they will get people in the park simply by promoting certain IPs? That is the formula now. The IPs bring the crowds. All the debate over whether any of those things are needed is pointless. Universal feels the current paradigm works. We will get TWD as long as they feel it is still bringing in people. If they feel people will come with repeating houses... then they will repeat houses. Likewise, Lady Luck bombed so that means no Icons.

My point is the art form (at least in the grand scheme) has been replaced by bean counters. They allow the art when they feel it will generate the most revenue. That is what makes me disapointed. Because it translates into safe decisions, bland marketing, and things repeating over and over when they work. The gutsy, innovative risks are gone. In this paradigm, it doesn't matter if it will even be good. So long as it brings people in and they don't repeat the mistake if it bombs. If it does, well they just fall back on the fans who will come no matter what because... well they can. Yet when things are doing great they will turn around on those same fans and disregard them.

Look, I'm excited about the event as much as everyone else. But that is because I like what is being presented already (for the most part). They don't have to sell me on an Alien house of any kind. But for every Alien house there is an equally disapointing Doomsday.

I've been every year but 2004. I've seen the trends. I just feel like a little spark has been extinguished. Will it kill the event? No. Will it stop me from going? No (currently anyway) Does it mean I like the current trend? Heck no.

Still when they run out of blockbusters to turn into houses, they've repeated and bled dry everything that brings they blind masses in, and people get sick of it. Then it may change... or fold depending on if they feel it's worth it.

[homelessjogger]

And that is why they will not change it. Why bother making interactive sites, backstories, Icons, interesting marketing if they feel they will get people in the park simply by promoting certain IPs? That is the formula now. The IPs bring the crowds. All the debate over whether any of those things are needed is pointless. Universal feels the current paradigm works. We will get TWD as long as they feel it is still bringing in people. If they feel people will come with repeating houses... then they will repeat houses. Likewise, Lady Luck bombed so that means no Icons.

My point is the art form (at least in the grand scheme) has been replaced by bean counters. They allow the art when they feel it will generate the most revenue. That is what makes me disapointed. Because it translates into safe decisions, bland marketing, and things repeating over and over when they work. The gutsy, innovative risks are gone. In this paradigm, it doesn't matter if it will even be good. So long as it brings people in and they don't repeat the mistake if it bombs. If it does, well they just fall back on the fans who will come no matter what because... well they can. Yet when things are doing great they will turn around on those same fans and disregard them.

Look, I'm excited about the event as much as everyone else. But that is because I like what is being presented already (for the most part). They don't have to sell me on an Alien house of any kind. But for every Alien house there is an equally disapointing Doomsday.

I've been every year but 2004. I've seen the trends. I just feel like a little spark has been extinguished. Will it kill the event? No. Will it stop me from going? No (currently anyway) Does it mean I like the current trend? Heck no.

Still when they run out of blockbusters to turn into houses, they've repeated and bled dry everything that brings they blind masses in, and people get sick of it. Then it may change... or fold depending on if they feel it's worth it.

Art does not equal business. You guys seem to compare what you think is best versus the arc of the industry itself. Successful marketing is entirely about context. Your Kool-Aid reference was funny but true on some levels. What's inside is exactly the same. If people have an underlying expectation that an event will be high quality (award winning year after year, good experiences, word of mouth from friends, etc) they could put up a white billboard with the name and a few IP logos and people would come. That's how this works.

From a business standpoint it doesn't make sense to spend more money to bring in the same amount of people. If 1% of the people, essentially this message board, complain but still go what's the point? Even if you guys didn't go it wouldn't matter. They have focus groups, user testing, data analytics, and behavioral metrics that showcase to them what works. We're only guessing and complaining because it might not align with what we want as an individual or small group. We don't know the business logic. It's clearly working. They are producing profit, word of mouth AND winning awards. There is no sense in changing that at all. They do change the formula a little each year, try new things, etc. Some work, some fail. But it's still a good experience.

Point is, are you going to the event? Why are you going? If there is one reason, one house, one situation you are going for they did their job and did it well. It's a pipe dream to expect one person will love all the decisions they make. That's just not reality.

It's an awesome event even if some of the houses don't turn out. It's a great value for the money. The website is great in the context of the industry and Universal's own website. They're doing a good job folks.

Edited August 27, 2014 by homelessjogger

[JDW]

I'm not discounting the event will be awesome this year. I know a whole lot about what is taking place and I'm very excited about it.

I do disagree on "Art does not equal business" to an extent. In the early '00s, the art is what saved a floundering generic event that didn't stand out at all. The art was the business. But now they don't need it. So I concur that the art is no longer their business.

They are doing a good job... for them. That is who they care about, naturally, and I guess that is what ultimately matters.

Welcome to Halloween Corporate Nights.

[homelessjogger]

Priority 1 is revenue or the event will slowly be cut off. All decisions stem from that. That's just business. How are customers viewing the event? What can we do differently? Can we make it better? They listen. But the small group that has gone for a decade or more aren't their main demographic. They can't appease everyone at all angles. They try to each year with well known public IPs like the Walking Dead and then also try to appease us with things like Aliens, Halloween, original content, etc.

They're definitely trying to do it all. I just don't think it gets noticed enough.

I work with big companies like this all the time. It's a lot more complicated than even the smartest of us think it is from the outside. And I know you, JDW, know more than the general people do. Just seems to be more of a personal hurt on your end because it seems like you do understand some of the business decisions being made too from the years we've chatted on these boards (and previous boards).

[JDW]

Agreed. It is personal for me. Isn't it for everyone?

Being an "artist" myself, I know (or think I do) what happens to the creatives who come up with the amazing ideas that get the kibosh. I mean Mr Gromoll pretty much confimed the frustration in his FB rant. I am also very much anti-coproate, I like guerilla/viral marketing, and I like an agressive push for innovation and creativity so of course my views are tinted by my standpoint

Ultimately it is a loss of something I held dear for a long time. I obsessed because I enjoyed it so much. I don't obsess any more... Ok that isn't 100% true. The hunt to know all the things is still a powerful drug to me. But the great stories and the imaginative characters, that used to be the focal point, those are what hooked me. Interesting enough, prior to the icons i went every year but not because I thought it was the best event. There would have been no love loss if I had missed a year. THAT came really after 2002. (Plus there were still plenty of independent haunts around to go to earlier on).

At this point we could debate if my obsession was healthy or not and if this change has, in fact, done me a service. But the point still stands that I am no longer hooked. I've been selling off my collection, I no longer anticipate the updates, and I don't even visit their website anymore except to grab the art to post here. If I wasn't obligated to be involved with the forum everyday I'm sure the effect would be even more amplified.

I am still enjoying it and I do understand the business decisions being made are most benificial to them. I just feel it is the death of an era.

anyway, I'm off my soapbox

[homelessjogger]

Agree with 100% of what you just said.

[HomemadeHaunt]

I couldn't agree more JDW. The old, original days of Horror Nights were what made the event special and engrossing. After attending HHN for the first time, my best friend and I were inspired by the elaborate stories and amount of creativity/diversity in the event. We were so much inspired that we started building our own haunted houses and often built off of some of the story lines that A&D created for HHN. In the past few years I have seen the event drastically change and it seems like a totally different animal now. It's a real shame that we don't have much backstory and original content this year. Unfortunately I don't see things changing for the better anytime soon.

[HomemadeHaunt]

Doubt it.

Hopefully not.

[Legacy]

Agreed. It is personal for me. Isn't it for everyone?

Get back on your soapbox... You're not finished.

People who know me, and more importantly know my history with HHN, know that the event use to be a very very personal thing. It was where I met my wife. It was my first real job before joining the Army. It was, and continues to be, a personal pipedream. The only reason I still somewhat care about the event is because of nostalgia (and the firm belief that I could run the damn thing so much better than anyone).

That said, I came to realize in 2011 that the event really isn't conducive to actually being personal. Yes, that revelation stemmed from what I viewed as a managerial middle-finger, but it wasn't a one time issue. It was a long-active policy that put the bottom-line over the people that were most passionate about the event. The only thing that changed is that, for once, my passion couldn't hide what was there all along.

The people may care, but the business doesn't.

Maybe I should get that tattooed across my chest. Universal doesn't, and hasn't cared about us. The thing is is that, during the aughts, we (the fans) got this misguided mindset that we mattered to the business. The Terra Queen sacrifice and Legendary Truth especially are highlighted as pinnacles of "doing something for the fans." But that completely ignores that fact that it was the people in A&D doing something special. The business didn't care because there was no real liability with it.

The personal relationship the hardcore fans share with the event is, and always has been, a one-way street. The major difference now is that, because of HHN's success with the people who don't have a personal investment with a theme park event, the bloom is coming off the rose. Nothing has really changed. We just see it now.

I know people who still take a personal slight to the closure of Jaws. But from an objective stance, it was a brilliant decision to remove it for Diagon Alley. A person who is offended when a business makes a business decision is choosing to take it personnal. And that's entirely on them. You can't blame the business, because the business NEVER cared.

[JDW]

That is a good point. The creators care not the company. But it never mattered what the company did until it started to affect the output of the people who do.

[homelessjogger]

I think you're both on point here. I do remember back when wearing a vault shirt to the vent meant something. Actors would be able to engage with you much more than rules would allow. Those events created the aura of what HHN is to me. It's definitely long gone and no longer exists. My last experience with HHN was 2 years ago walking through a basically empty Walking Dead house before closing. It was a polar opposite experience. Which is probably why I didn't make the effort to go last year.

I will be going this year because the theme park itself has so much to offer since I've been there last. Without that, I'm not really certain I would make the trek to Orlando from Wisconsin and spend a week there like I did in the past.

Even with all of that in mind, pulling back a bit, the event does look like a top quality event. Especially for non-jaded types.

You guys were more in tune with the goings-on with HHN and probably have a lot of great personal stories (that's awesome you met your wife there, Legacy). For people like you, and me to a lesser extent, it's about the community and coming together. In a way, it's like old people getting together to talk about the better days when things weren't such a joke. But replace prices, kids these days, the war, etc with HHN.

[HomemadeHaunt]

Wow. That really got me thinking Legacy.

[Legacy]

That is a good point. The creators care not the company. But it never mattered what the company did until it started to affect the output of the people who do.

But see, I think that's a bit misguided. The company ALWAYS affected the artistic output.

It was a business decision to remove the serial killing Eddie as the icon from 2001 and replace him with the safer Jack.

It was a business decision to not use a demented little girl as an icon in 2002 and instead develop her father as the icon instead.

It was a business decision to not utilize "Severe Fear."

It was a business decision to not use the Terra Queen as the icon, and instead create the Storyteller.

It was a business decision to not have proper streets in 2007.

We have plenty of evidence of the event's artists continuously trying to push the envelope with challenging icons, more compelling stories, or unique, mold-breaking concepts. The original story of Eddie (and his killing of Jack) is a much more compelling idea than him being retconned as Jack's brother. The original idea of Cindy and Islands of Fear, a lonely, porcelin-faced girl whose disturbingly nightmarish fantasies have come to life is way more engaging an involved that generic evil mortecian (and Albert Caine is my favorite icon). Severe Fear would have predated Howl-o-Scream's upcharge house by nearly a decade. Plenty of things never happened because Universal is a business and put the business first.

The thing is that, because we enjoyed those years, we don't think about what we didn't get. But that doesn't mean that what we got was pure artistic expression. It means we got exactly what the business wanted us to get.

[JDW]

You're right I didn't think about all those. We can't forget the "no blood only green goo" issue in 2001 as well. Several of them were only common sense but you're right business decisions none the less. I honestly never even noticed until 2005 with all the confusion surrounding the Storyteller vs the Queen but the event was solid so it wasn't that big of an issue. Plus that was the year when all the games and interactivity really started (Not to discredit the awesome and cohesive 2004 site mind you).

I enjoyed last year's event. But the pre-event stuff was nothing but pure frustration. Which concrens me. Does that me LT, the games, and the rest being cancelled are gone now that it met with very muddled results? I hope not. But it definitely was a added expense that ultimately did not increase the bottom line.

I guess it boils down to what set the bar for us individually. The newer visitors don't know what it was like back then... and none of us really know what it would have been like with all the Creative ideas implemented. But we have lost a lot of the features in the last few years that made the event feel like a community. The hype by the company is gone and really only manufactured by the fans sites at this point. The games were great for that but now that is nixed. With zero hype and zero to do before they just go "oh yeah, here is the next house" their isn't that awesome build up. Anyone who has been around a few years knows what it's like.

It frustrates me because it seems so easy to do. The Ifrit, Cassi, Emeric, The mutual Friend, etc. they all did pretty good with the information they had. How much easier would it be for a sanctioned viral marketing entity to take the rungs? All it would take is a little bit of planning, a social meida account, and someone who can make clues. That would keep us occupied, happy, and could easily add back story without inflating the budget. Then simply have a prop or two in a house, a small video as a reward, even some early release shot. (depending on how they build up the story) to complete the circle. Viola. Heck they could even use it to give "inside" information they already tease anyway.

[Legacy]

If you think about when the "it's the end of the event-rabble-rabble-rabble" really took off, it was in 2012 with the beginning of TWD. Even with the somewhat sub-par build up in 2011, everyone was thrilled because web-games! Vague stories tid-bits! An over-arching story that connects the houses regardless of how shoehorned and clumsy it is.

But then the Walking Dead came in. And it was a smart business decision that the business capitalized on. The business no longer needed an icon because, why? All an icon would do is muddy the IP waters (It's a big reason why the Usher is the somewhat forgotten icon. He was completely unnecessary when you have Saw, Wolfman and Chucky). But that's when the people who started really getting in to the event during the aughts suddenly realized that it wasn't about icons, or the stories, or Carey, Ohio.

I really feel for the people whose first year of HHN was 2007 or 2008. They were kinda creative zeniths as far as story-telling goes. But even 2007, with the Jack presenting the Big Three worked because Jack (by that point) was a highly recognizable face for the event... He was TWD.

[homelessjogger]

Although it has been about 5 years now, Universal Studios was very open to creatively marketing their events and new rides. I was very deep in negotiations with handling some of Hollywood's digital marketing, mini sites, etc for announcements like King Kong, HHN, etc. It was an enlightening time to see how the wheels turned there.

I don't follow the details of staffing changes, or executive changes, like some of you do but like Legacy and JDW said things have changed a lot. There was a reason for that change. Maybe 10 years from now someone will make a documentary about HHN et al and showcase the journey, community, and evolution of the vent (good or bad) through the years.

Also, my keyboard randomly doesn't type the letter 'e'. I didn't purposely call HHN a vent numerous times...